> Lots of very true points. You have to enjoy it, or else it'll come across as insincere, and you'll do a half assed job. Will some new person to the team who shows high growth potential push you aside even though you've been doing really solid work for years?Sometimes I wish it worked like an experience bar in a video game where you can clearly see when you will "ding". So yes, Mini's list should get you to 63 anywhere. Think of the guy in the other company, the guy who is building something that competes with you, with your team. 1. Most of our ways of doing things have so many imperfections that you would not have any trouble to find obvious thing to improve in obvious ways. Technical excellence alone will not generate success.Authority. I think talking about level just confuses people as beyond US there is a different level system!L63 in the US is Senior (Level 60 in most of the other countries), well, moving to Senior is not such a big thing if you have experience, with more than 10 years in the industry I was hired at this level, now Senior II is just a matter of continuing contributing but the different comes to Principal (or lead), here is where you need to shine in order to succeed.Recommendation: Work not only towards your commitments but your managers as well As a former L65 (left MSFT about two months ago) I can say you are right on when it comes to understanding where your boss stands. If you don't have a manager like that or the manager cannot/will not set clear commits/accountabilities - when the freeze lifts, time for you to look at new areas where you can bring something to the table. .css-1uhsr4o{margin-right:8px;}Get Paid, Not Played. At L63 in particular you break out of the pack with expertise in the "how" you accomplish things. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did in some ways. If you think of it as "How can I do better than my manager?" It's usually too late at that point. The estimated base pay is $243,438 per year. At Microsoft, the levels start at 59 and go beyond 80. Today's top 83,000+ Senior Director jobs in United States. But the clarity I have through the rear view mirror is staggering -- I was defining myself by what a bunch of poorly skilled managers thought, in a company that hadn't moved it's stock price in seven years. Learn everything I can about the technology (I'm a PM and don't have a CS background so I work extra hard at this and ask lots of questions.)2. If you reach L63 during your time at Microsoft, especially if you started at L60 or below, you should celebrate. My queries on any specific guidance would get no response or the response that youre a 62 and you should be able to figure it out. You have to strive to get the KEY to the boss's heart and brain. Thanks.Sorry mini -- I meant the content of the comment I referenced, not the content of your original post (which I'm in violent agreement with). I know many that purposely work for Microsoft as contractors just for this reason. How long do people usually sit at L62 in MCS? My management tells me that this is normal and 2 years is "aggressive", but this is getting frustrating for me. I have staff that are lvl 60 and get paid as much as folks that are lvl 62. Obviously, this is advice that you may not apply during the current hiring freeze, but keep it on your mind for the future.- At times the focus on the level may not be the most important strategy in the long term. Judson Althoff. 8,000+ Senior Director Human Resources Jobs in United States - LinkedIn Find a way to make or save them money. Remember the "how".All the things Mini mentions do translate further up in levels. We have to reduce billions of dollars of cost. One, we bill customers higher for higher levels and we call everyone 'highly experienced' or even an 'architect'. The CSPs are a good attempt to define each level, but anyone who is looking at the CSPs and saying I do that, and that, , but Im not getting promoted is almost certainly missing the point. I sympathize with folks who feel they have been shafted however to quote a cliched saying: the common factor between you and all your problems is you. However, the results show that the vast majority of dev/test/pm will make level 63 and in a reasonable timeframe. So, focusing on the customer instead of the competition is "incoherent blithering?" then the follow-up is: after what accomplishments and around when? That figures. You want to test more cases than he does, you want to build something that draws users to what you're doing more than to his.Having part of the bonus be for how the team succeeded relative to the other teams might focus competition towards the competition and not exclusively on co-workers.Add up the review scores of each team member and rank teams. It turns out that typically your immediate manager has little control, it's all decided at higher levels. You can wait 24 months to gain all the credibilty & visibilty & trust again that needs to intersect precisely with your new leaderships ability to argue you on the stack proficiently. Leverage your professional network, and get hired. These turtles gets promoted eventually just based on time spent at MS and because they werent doing anything wrong even though they dont really meet CSP criteria. How? Be prepared for every possible question, scenario, disaster, etc. It is a dream company for many people. By contrast high performers have a fairly accurate self assessment, but are slightly self critical of themselves as well as others. It takes a little time to get on your skip-level manager's radar. Any idea on when is this going to change? There may be multiple reasons for pay differences - one of which is a small number of salaries submitted per job. This is so that they can convert those positions to other discipline.i've seen this happening to at least 2 teams so far. About 1/2 the team is staying, the other half is going to a number of different teams within the larger org. How do you get the right job/work that will make the impact. you need to hit the pause button for one big time-out regarding where you are, where you're going, and what needs to change. Microsoft Salary. If you can't ever figure it out, and if you can't become a "favorite underling", then it's time to find a different group with people you can better relate-to. This past year I had what I thought was an outstanding year, was given a 20%, but not promoted to L63. To change Microsoft so that it is small and efficient, and therefore more in line with your thinking?Are you changing your stance because you're leaving the 'hoi polloi' behind? Secondly, finding a suitable mentor to help them overcome that weakness. However, I think this is the first point where we see a non-trivial number of folks plateau. I'm at 62, have been for lo, these many years. Jobs are leveled, not people - make sure the job you have includes the scope needed for the level you want. Flip on the klaxons! That is the guy to beat. No manager can bail you out of "bad brand jail" past L625. Up or out as they say.I found a niche I was happy in. I'm sure others here will clarify.And apparently we will all know more in January. Then you're on the path to higher levels. From my perspective (L67) here's what you need to nail:1. I suspect the former because there's no point in a manager telling you that you got promoted when you didn't. I wasn't sure I was going to get out of a couple of those situations but after everyone of them, I was stronger and smarter.Take the challenge and go after tough problems. 3. I thought what I did was valuable but in the end, it wasn't.The Microsoft up or out policy is the prime directive. To go to L60 as an IC you need to show leadership in your group, proactivity in taking new challenges which affect the success of the group, and be a SME on your tech area (if in a tech role).L61 = M1 of a medium sized team or an IC role which influences the results of a v-team significantlyL62 = M2 or M1 of a large team, or a lead role for a large cross-group initiative (e.g. (Not). In the case of the latter, make sure you have the goods, because your manager now must show his/her hand on whether s/he values you. This will only lead us to a healthy and balanced distribution of levels across genders. also work is good only when it leads to results that typically means team's success. Microsoft - Director, Level 65 at Microsoft | Glassdoor Great post! Had I only known this info when I started at Microsoft. The skills are different, and part of the failure of this company is exactly due to losing star individual contributors that become mediocre leads, in all disciplines. What worked for me was to go to my manager and say: "I would like to stay here, at Microsoft, working for you. If you have a good manager he/she will ensure the relevant peers know all about it. I came in at L61 2+ years ago. Same here. If you know higher leveled people in another org, ask them to poke holes in your proposals. We had a strategic plan for getting me the visibility with the higher-ups that I needed.My promotion to Level 65 during the last annual review period was clearly the hardest. I am soliciting ideas to reduce cost in this blog. Next, make sure your manager values your contributions and surpass their expectations, making yourself invaluable and not immediately replaceable. So one big part is do good work, but another is don't do bad work.I think it's a very good idea to ask for a promotion. You can each help each other.I've gone from 59 to 65 so far, but maybe what worked for me won't work for you. Regarding the comment about the ability to own a room - This is a very good self-calibration technique. They just plain resonate. I got to point where I resented my manager so much I could barely talk to him. By persist, I do not mean being happy to be at the same <63 level for 3+ years for exmaple. Know where you are in the stack and understand how you will rank higher next year.BTW, forgot to mention I was a manager for the second half of my career. I am not saying the manager is trying to sabotage, but when push comes to shove will you get the impactful project. You must ask for a promotion when you think you are ready. Did you triangulate the feedback? Absolutely. -- Business Transformation Executive with demonstrated experience in managing and implementing large transformation programs through all levels of the organization in order to build growth, grab new market opportunities or reduce costs.<br><br>- Building on Solid experience in Functional roles (Sales, Marketing, Delivery Operations) to drive those programs <br>- Sales Oriented Business . Got two promotions - still level 60. I have known some that do what is barely enough for "achieve" just because it is safe. Could somebody please confirm or deny this. So far, I haven't been successful. Our entire unit was let go but we were moved to different groups in the org. I'm hiring 6 good MSFT developer/consultants. I think it's important to be very up-front andto use a clichetransparents with your manager regarding your next steps and prospects for promotion. "Sad but true. In my co-workers case, they overloaded him with work and then documented anything that fell through the cracks until they had enough to get rid of him.I'm sure HR throttles managers when this is going on. You're selling it in no less than eight different SKUs, (including the upgrades) and your marketing message is deliberately obfuscated to convince the customers to go for the most expensive one. So most new hires at MS are L63 by default and they obviously don't have to work at it :).Yes, L64->L65 transition is REALLY big deal but directly joining MS at L65 as new FTE is not a big deal and there are usually ample of open positions. Is that a req. First, they are moving *to* something that they think fits them better -- and bringing an enthusiasm for the new position to go with the better fit. There certainly doesn't seem to be any shortage of people wanting in. Add your salary anonymously in less than 60 seconds and continue exploring all the data. The problem is you can't tell if you've done something to piss him off or if he's doing it because he has to. . There is an over lap in all levels when you move across companies with m:n map. No one is born an experienced mgr and even the most experienced mgrs are not perfect. Pull the ripcord. If you are working at Microsoft, plan well to climb up the job ladder. If you are considering leaving your team (or Microsoft) but think you could be persuaded to stay, be careful about how you present this to your manager. I'm not looking for any off-topic comments let alone woe-be-me comments - remember that slap thing? This can play a bigger role even than how many times you broke the build, caused a bug, etc. Hi,Now that the Annual review is approaching, I wanted to seek tips on justification putforth to the manager to move from L60-L61. He himself is principal for quite sometime. If youre working individually there is an upper limit on how much you can accomplish since there are only 24 hours in a day some of which must be devoted to eating, sleeping, and other bodily functions. check the ego out, ensure that people around you (the whole team is successful), create the best results possible and your promotion wont be far away. For others, the picture will not be so clear and they may place more weight on perceptions or a set of isolated incidents. We've negotiated thousands of offers and regularly achieve $30k+ (sometimes $300k+) increases. If only your manager knows you then it is unlikely (at least on paper) that you will move beyond L62. You want to be more efficient, smarter than him. It's a knife fight to 63. That means, know what people think about you and what they don't. Given that quite a few Microsofties are going to find themselves locked into their current group for a while, the ability to succeed by swinging on the vines to a new group is going to be rare. Like another poster, I was a 64 who hit the "65 wall" after 10 years at MS. Senior finance leader with several years of experience as a member of executive teams within large Australian blue chip and global multi-national companies with broad and diverse background and wide-ranging experience. Additionally, a Level 62 doesn't really have the tools to evaluate and sell a promotion to a 63. You are now 20% closer to promotion just by a day of work :). This is a great topic! We definitely need a new thread, things are starting to happen indeed.Our 120+ person org has just been broken up due to lack of budget. Thats why L64->L65 transition is so hard. This means there are 24 distinct job levels at Microsoft. L68 is partner, or you may see GM. I am offered a job at L65 and job offer has a title Director on it! First let's set the expectations right for this quarter and possibly the next: The budgets for promos are shrunk almost everywhere. Advice from anyone at Microsoft for 10+ years is great to hear, but hard to follow. I take some of the blame for not managing my career more directly, but no one should be offered a promotion when they leave--if they are valuable, let them know before hand! But that's kind of the point -- simplify your approach. Microsoft Wish I this post and comments laminated about 10 years ago after I wasn't going to get rich off stock.My comment to add is to those who are put into situations of continual reorgs and want to achieve the 'Senior'. I say this because I have seen really smart people shunned because of 'house-on-fire' attitudes even when they were dead right. "You might be too smart or have ideas that come from somewhere outside of Redmond which makes you very dangerous and not Microsoft material. Why cannot we have our address title reflect our level as everybody else in the company?Not giving quite as snide a response as the previous posterAsk your management. I haven't seen one single person getting hired below L63 in my group during last year. After I became a lead & manager, I was given a team in turmoil after a re-org and straightened that out. Contributed and exceeded in two roles - getting G-Star, then moved to another team with clear headroom and again, exceeded all commits and moved to L64. I went from level 62 to level 65 in that time. It appears on 6.3% of resumes. Until you can be honest with yourself (and it's not fun, trust me) you will be stuck doing what you're doing and your complaining will be the glue keeping you there. Those teams I used to despise as a L60, and only tolerate as a 63? You broke the trust cycle so don't expect anything else. I am working towards it would say am there 75% of the way. I was always righteously indignant when I encountered asshats and incompetence and I would rail against the losers to anyone who would listen, and then I would do whatever it took to drive my agenda through to completion.I focused 100% on producing vast quantities of superior quality work -- which endeared me to my management chain and opened up a crap-ton of doors at those early levels. After that, I was given a team that was in trouble quality wise 6 months before shipping. This way I can be in a better position to show that I am a "absolutely!" New shiny brain up and working now. Doesn't matter 60 or 65, if you find the key to your boss, next level is in your pocket. Yes, "soft skills" count.I'm pleased that someone said it.There are a collection of skills that are difficult to quantify that are absolute necessities to succeeding at higher levels. Years ago we had a dev on my team who was very high IQ and very driven, but was driving his lead nuts. Ben Harris - Interim Director - BT Group | LinkedIn Do a brownbag for your VP level group, record it and send out the link to everyone. If a spot is available. There are definitely projects you can work on with your manager to increase your visibility, but if things don't happen right away just keep at it.Your manager should be able to give you fairly specific feedback on where you stand in your skip-level's eyes. The good thing in most teams here is that if you persist, you will get there. >Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. It makes a difference in your relationship. If you are in office, you will have lots of experience promoting people up to 62 but after that it's a rare event. These guys are typically outcome of recent hiring sprees. The person who puts you up for promotion and has promotion conversations with your skip level. Ask any old mainframer what it was like to be an IBM customer back in the day. If you are not at the top of your stack rank for your level, you will not get the promo. But power plays are at work and I get smacked when I try and take on extra work.So my question to the more experienced is this - how does one get the attention of management when they are focused on their own problems, their favorite underlings (of which I am not one), and when there is not enough work to go around?"1. Be very careful, because some people may tell you about this or that great thing they did, and only mention that they are (or were) married to this General Manager, or that they have been in the team since it was only 2 people, and the other person today is a VP. I believe that the most fundamental difference between level 62 and 63 is in the realm of EQ (emotional quotient, see the book Working With Emotional Intelligence" by Goleman). Avoid long-winded multi-point e-mails, boil down your points as succinctly and efficiently as possible. Within the comments, I hope to elicit advice that follows up on what I start here, and maybe even contradicts it. great post. But that doesn't really help you compete when you don't know what everyone else is doing, particularily if you think you're doing well.Further, it's hard to get specific advice on how to get promoted, due to said black wall. Getting constant feedback throughout is valuable as you can re-align and re-adjust in an agile way so that you are not shocked at review time that you have completely missed that promotion. You can bet that if I went back today I would be a _very_ different person.The only thing I would add is that at any level, you need to not only know that your manager believes you should be promoted and will fight for you, you need to believe that your manager _can make it happen_. Ritu Sethi - Director- Technology I Outsourcing & Offshoring - ABC I am a HR manager. I think one of the things that is frustrating is how opaque the promotion system really is. I actually find the content of this post to be superficial, fairly naive and not reflective of my experience having moved through the ranks from 59 to >65.Well please don't just tease us and leave it there. Raymond V. Gilmartin 3,4 Former Chairman, President, Chief Executive Officer, Merck & Co., Inc. W. Reed Hastings 3 No one else was as good. Never "threaten" to leave or waive external offers in my face unless you're fully prepared to be escorted out of the building that minute. Punit Bhatia - Director - Sales - Apar Innosys Pte ltd | LinkedIn When I was an IC, it was tough technical problems or simply critical problems that no one else wanted. But it should definitely keep me up in the top of the class, and getting a nice review score + kudos + a job well done with results is a reward in itself (that I crave for more than the actual promotion).I have given this suggestion to Lisa, but I have not seen any action so far. Seek out local critique before you approach people above you. Thanks to Mini for the great information. If it isn't, well don't waste everyone's time building the wrong thing.When you think of it this way, you'll anticipate what your manager needs, you'll anticipate what your skip-level needs, and you'll be doing what they need even before they know they need it. Expertise in the following areas: Product Marketing Consistently created groundbreaking, customer-focused value . Dina Dublon 1,2 Former Chief Financial Officer, JPMorgan Chase. I'm just going to try and emphasize a few points here:* As mentioned by many folks, it is important to own your career and hence plan you promotion, discuss it with your manager, and most importantly follow up on it. weeks to find another position within the company, otherwise they are laid off.Anyone know others? Microsoft, Go to company page Promotion budgets of 65 and above has been kept intact.Where did you hear this? Jon Tucker - Principal Director - Data & AI - Kainos | LinkedIn Be nice, and clear in your communications. Join the Levels.fyi community to chat with employees at Microsoft and other tech companies. If you're not there yet and your boss was asked that question by your skip-level-boss, what is your boss's answer? Is it easier to level up in smaller groups (v1 product)?
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